Curse

Mirhi · Aug 22, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

For those who think Protbond isnt broken here is a perfect example of how broken it is.

Just for giggles I went into my bags and changed my armor and attribute points over to the 80hp build. Then I went to the comp arena. I crossed my fingers and sure enough the opposing group had no debuffing. The floor was pretty quickly mopped with the rest of my teamates, and then the 4 opponents spend the next HOUR trying to kill me. One of my teamates hung around as they slowly realized that there was no point in trying to kill me and one by one just left the game. The last hold out was a healer monk, and he was doing his level best to kill me, but he couldnt do any damage, and my smiting wasnt enough to bring a healer down by myself. He didnt see the fact that I could go afk and not care eventually I'd wand him down if he left his keyboard for too long. Although I will say he was bright enough to try to train me into the poisonswamp where he would be able to kill me. (if i was afk of course), then I just stopped auto attacking and stood on the beach, he couldnt kill me, and I didnt have to kill him. right around an hour after the fight started he left.

I did that one time to see how well it would work.
Its proof positive that monks are unbalanced if 4 equally leveled players HAVE to have a debuff to have the slightest hope of killing me. Yes a Debuff makes it easy in pvp, but having debuffs literally everywhere in PvE is not the answer.

Fix Prot Bond Anet.

Your answering your own question. Against a BALANCED team, protective bond will do nothing. Either an energy denial mesmer, or any necro or mesmer with enchantment removal will dominate a monk with 105 health relying on protective bond.

Rend Enchantments? Shatter Enchantment? Drain Enchantment? Inspire Enchantment? Desecreate Enchantments?

Arcane Echo, Energy Drain, Ether Lord, Malaise, Whither, ETC ETC ETC

The point is, if you have no energy it doesn't stay up AND you can just remove it. Your expected to bring enchantment removal to Team Arenas, or GvG, or Tombs.

If you don't your a moron. Arena Net doesn't need to fix protective bond. No good team uses it anyway. Its only good in PvE and why does that affect you?

Also for your comment about the FPS players wanting only PvP.

I come from a lot of MMORPGs, I started in EQ in 1999, played SWG, CoH, WoW, DaoC, AC.

If you don't like the PvP crowd. YOU GET OUT!

Arena Net made the game for PvP, you really think they care about PvE balance? This game was made for PvP. Hense GUILD WARS. GUILD WARS.

Its not "Battle through the Underworld and slay demons" No. The story is pretty good, but its not what they made it for. If they did, they might have made people's mouths move during cutscences. This game isn't about RP, its about PvP.

If you want to play RP, join the other elitist ass holes on RP servers in games like World of Warcraft.
You can have your grind there, and lots of other people who feel the same way as you do, routinely shouting "NERF TEH H4XX0RS!"

Pardon me sir, but I think your in the wrong game to complain about how PvE is more important that PvP. And if your not saying that, delete your threads and shut up.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugon M. Musashi

how the hell is using a skill properly "exploiting" ?

Well Mugon, that depends on wether or not you believe that Anet really intended monks to be able to solo UW like no other class can. Can you honestly believe that anet intentionally coded the game so that a monk who goes to extreme lengths to lower his hit points, (to include doubling up on sup runes which nobody would EVER do under any other circumstance, and using a noob quest reward necromancer item) would be able to solo tank mobs that acutal warriors, let alone any other class, have no chance in hell of surviving without support. I can't and I believe anyone who says that they really think anet intended this result, and the resultant explosion of monkroaches, is playing see no evil hear no evil because if its not exploiting then theres no reason not milk the cash cow. At least those who concern themselves a little think that way. The rest just attack me for telling the truth. You'd not belive the foul hatred I'm getting via Private messages. I belive that the 105 is the result of some clever people coaxing more performance out of a skill than Anet ever intended. And the argument that the simple fact that they were able to do so means that its not an exploit does not hold water for me. I've given up the monk solo of UW. Its unbalanced, If I feel like going there from now on, I'm going to take all the mesmers that nobody ever takes to UW and let them do whatever it is they would do while the cows beat on me.

in my view, the 105 is an exploit. Kudos to the crafty folk who figured it out, time for anet to fix it.

Mirhi · Aug 22, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

In all your elitist BS you forgot that a very healthy number of people play 4 on 4 random or 4 on 4 matches in general. And the Pro bond monks are a serious pain in the ass there. I think its time for ANET to quit balqancing the game around the elitist crowd. I would say MORE people play random 4 on 4 than the GvG or HoH. Balance for tha majority of the playerbase.

No one who is good at this game cares about people who play 4v4 Competition Arenas. No one. Anyone good does TA, Tombs or GvG. If you don't consistantly win at Tombs or GvG, you aren't good, and have no basis on balance of the game. We all find the game perfectly balanced except for maybe a few spells but mainly:

NATURES RENEWAL.

Nothing else matters much except for who has control of NR in a match. Its the single most powerful skill in the game.

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 22, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Just some general tips for the few folks that didn't get the memo:

#1 - Using a skill as intended - or any combination of skills as intended - is NOT an exploit. You can debate the effectiveness, or how underpowered or overpowered a skill or sets of skills are, but it's NOT an exploit.

#2 - A skill or set of skills that work like they are supposed to (according to the skill description) are not "broken".

#3 - Quit stating "The devs intended this", or "the devs never intended that" unless you can provide a link to a dev stating exactly what you're complaining about. Last time I checked, mindreading still isn't a proven phenomena, so quit acting like you can do it.

#4 - Just because someone can go into an area of the game alone doesn't impact YOU in the slightest, except bunching up your panties, apparently. Nor does it impact the GAME. Bot behavior does, farming does NOT.

#5 - Stop exaggerating.

#6 - Stop using terms like "the PVP community says" or "everyone" or "the PVE community thinks" because last time I checked, I didn't give you the right to speak on my behalf, and unless I have, you can't use any of those terms. You are speaking for YOURSELF, not some "community", and certainly not for me.

Thanks.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirhi

Its only good in PvE and why does that affect you?

You're mistaken in thinking that it has to effect me to be an exploit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirhi

If you don't like the PvP crowd. YOU GET OUT!

Never once said I dislike the PVP crowd, I implied that I disagree with those who want to turn GW into CS. I am sure there are plenty of fine pvp players, and i've enjoyed some pvp as well, as much as anyone can with the current state of pvp anyway. I prefer cooperative play, but I've never said that the PVP aspect of the game is "less important". What I said was that they should be seperated so that those who have no interest in the RP game can get out of it, which would make them happy, and make me happy as well.

now that I've addressed your issues with me would you care to add your opinion about any of the following things this thread was about? (i'll break it down for you.)

1. Too many bandwagon monks due to unbalanced protbond.
2. Probond needs fixing because its being exploited.
3. Nobody has yet explained to me how its cool to bring droks/elites to the ascalon arena/shiverpeak arena...

try one of those on for size and join the rest of us in our conversation. I'd ask that if you want to insult/flame whatever me further that you join the myriad people attempting to charbroil me by PM.

Algren Cole · Aug 22, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirhi

No one who is good at this game cares about people who play 4v4 Competition Arenas. No one. Anyone good does TA, Tombs or GvG. If you don't consistantly win at Tombs or GvG, you aren't good, and have no basis on balance of the game. We all find the game perfectly balanced except for maybe a few spells but mainly:

NATURES RENEWAL.

Nothing else matters much except for who has control of NR in a match. Its the single most powerful skill in the game.

you incorporate yourself with the "elites" of the game...because you don't play 4 v 4 random arena. Like you said, nobody good plays random arena. Yet you still believe that there is no counter build for Natures Renewal.....maybe you should spend less time massaging your ego on forums and more time researching a counter build for spirit spammers.....you aren't elite, you're just an elitist.

Hippie Crack · Aug 22, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

105/55 Monk primaries arent the only class that can solo UW. A W/R solo it.....obviously it doesn't rely on any enchantments. Dont even ask, i'm not gonna go spitting out the build on a public forum, not gonna tell anyone in game either, look what happened when the 105/55 got out. And also about using the 105/55 in 4v4 arena's, did u people ever hear of enchant removal, bleeding, poison, desease, fire, or any DoT hex in the game? If you can throw 7-8 pips of health degen on them they will die in a few seconds.

And a tip for whoever complained about the seed heal balls, Maelstrom + ChaosStorm or NR are your friend.

Endowed Johnson · Aug 22, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Just some general tips for the few folks that didn't get the memo:

#1 - Using a skill as intended - or any combination of skills as intended - is NOT an exploit. You can debate the effectiveness, or how underpowered or overpowered a skill or sets of skills are, but it's NOT an exploit.

#2 - A skill or set of skills that work like they are supposed to (according to the skill description) are not "broken".

#3 - Quit stating "The devs intended this", or "the devs never intended that" unless you can provide a link to a dev stating exactly what you're complaining about. Last time I checked, mindreading still isn't a proven phenomena, so quit acting like you can do it.

#4 - Just because someone can go into an area of the game alone doesn't impact YOU in the slightest, except bunching up your panties, apparently. Nor does it impact the GAME. Bot behavior does, farming does NOT.

#5 - Stop exaggerating.

#6 - Stop using terms like "the PVP community says" or "everyone" or "the PVE community thinks" because last time I checked, I didn't give you the right to speak on my behalf, and unless I have, you can't use any of those terms. You are speaking for YOURSELF, not some "community", and certainly not for me.

Thanks.

I give this one two thumbs way way up. Its the summer arguement blockbuster we've all been waiting for. You'll be on the edge of your seat as this action packed powerhouse has you screaming at the top of your lungs "Nerf teh nerfboiz"! Its a MUST SEE!

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirhi

No one who is good at this game cares about people who play 4v4 Competition Arenas. No one. Anyone good does TA, Tombs or GvG. If you don't consistantly win at Tombs or GvG, you aren't good, and have no basis on balance of the game. We all find the game perfectly balanced except for maybe a few spells but mainly:

NATURES RENEWAL.

Nothing else matters much except for who has control of NR in a match. Its the single most powerful skill in the game.

When I read this what I hear is, If you dont play the game the way I do then your opinion doesnt count for anything... Funny, thats what people were saying of me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by hippie crack

105/55 Monk primaries arent the only class that can solo UW. A W/R solo it.....obviously it doesn't rely on any enchantments. Dont even ask, i'm not gonna go spitting out the build on a public forum, not gonna tell anyone in game either, look what happened when the 105/55 got out.

what an amazingly convienent way to avoid proving that another class can solo UW at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Just some general tips for the few folks that didn't get the memo:

#1 - Using a skill as intended - or any combination of skills as intended - is NOT an exploit. You can debate the effectiveness, or how underpowered or overpowered a skill or sets of skills are, but it's NOT an exploit.

Remember this first rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimi miyagi

#2 - A skill or set of skills that work like they are supposed to (according to the skill description) are not "broken".

Cling to that disclamer (according to discription) because that way you can leave your head in the sand. We all know its impossible that there were unintended consequesces to the way certain things in the game have been coded.. that just couldnt be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimi miyagi

#3 - Quit stating "The devs intended this", or "the devs never intended that" unless you can provide a link to a dev stating exactly what you're complaining about. Last time I checked, mindreading still isn't a proven phenomena, so quit acting like you can do it.

For this I'd refer you to your own rule #1. The one where you say using skills "as intended" is not an exploit. As who intended sweetheart? Your first rule is a violation of your third rule. Which pretty much exposes your bias.
I for one remember saying that it hinged on wether you believe the devs intended monks to be able to solo in UW. I stated that I don't belive it one bit. That is in no way mindreading or even acting like I can mindread, so kindly don't tell me what I can and cannot do when you cant even follow your own rules!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimi miyagi

#4 - Just because someone can go into an area of the game alone doesn't impact YOU in the slightest, except bunching up your panties, apparently. Nor does it impact the GAME. Bot behavior does, farming does NOT.

Where do people get this conception that something has to impact another player directly for it to be an exploit?? This reasoning to me resonates like that of a child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimi miyagi

Thanks.

Anytime sweetcheeks.

Red Locust · Aug 22, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

The only thing you will accomplish by nerfing prot bond is making other people a lot less wealthy. In GW, wealth is useless.

It's simple philosophy:
If nerf to prot bond ---> Then less wealthy people
Wealth = Useless

Therefore,
Nerfing prot bond = Useless.

God himself couldn't make it simpler than that.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

The only thing you will accomplish by nerfing prot bond is making other people a lot less wealthy. In GW, wealth is useless.

It's simple philosophy:
If nerf to prot bond ---> Then less wealthy people
Wealth = Useless

Therefore,
Nerfing prot bond = Useless.

God himself couldn't make it simpler than that.

ok, so if a nerf to prot bond would be useless, because it would limit wealth, which in turn is worthless why are you so opposed?

If wealth is truly worthless to you, why would you care how wealthy you are let alone how wealthy other people are? I love how you refuse to apply to yourself the same rules you want to apply to me. You rant at me that there shouldnt be any nerf because you farming has no effect on me. Those were your words. Now, by extension of that logic, and what you've just posted about money being worthless... If there were less wealthy people in a game in which wealth is of no consequence how does that effect you??

lol, yea, I'm the hypocrite.

Age · Aug 22, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by super dooper

so, earlier I posted about the life stealing or shadow damage ignoring Protective Bond, to show I'm not crazy..

sorry for the height, tried to get it to show the important stuff.

How come you only have 4 skills on your bar?I would like it if some one can refreshen my memory on a 55 build is this with all minors and is a 105 with superiors?Thanks.

Mimi Miyagi · Aug 22, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

When I read this what I hear is, If you dont play the game the way I do then your opinion doesnt count for anything... Funny, thats what people were saying of me...

what an amazingly convienent way to avoid proving that another class can solo UW at all.

Remember this first rule.

Cling to that disclamer (according to discription) because that way you can leave your head in the sand. We all know its impossible that there were unintended consequesces to the way certain things in the game have been coded.. that just couldnt be.

For this I'd refer you to your own rule #1. The one where you say using skills "as intended" is not an exploit. As who intended sweetheart? Your first rule is a violation of your third rule. Which pretty much exposes your bias.
I for one remember saying that it hinged on wether you believe the devs intended monks to be able to solo in UW. I stated that I don't belive it one bit. That is in no way mindreading or even acting like I can mindread, so kindly don't tell me what I can and cannot do when you cant even follow your own rules!

Where do people get this conception that something has to impact another player directly for it to be an exploit?? This reasoning to me resonates like that of a child.

Anytime sweetcheeks.

I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. How you made such leaps of logic from one point to the next is beyond me. Hint - don't become a lawyer when you grow up, you'll never succeed.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. How you made such leaps of logic from one point to the next is beyond me. Hint - don't become a lawyer when you grow up, you'll never succeed.

Actually it was quite simple, I responded to the inane comments that you seem to have omitted in your response to me. You know the ones where you laid down a rule, I belive it was your third rule, which stated that I was not to say what was intended and what was not, dispite the fact that your very first rule argued that using a skill as intended is not an exploit. You actually said that I could not read minds and that I should not pretend to, but apparently your rules only apply to those who disagree with you.

Failing to have an answer for any one of the points that invalidate your points you then choose to give up the argument entirely and insult me. FTW!!! lol.

Racthoh · Aug 22, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Didn't bug me very much before with the number of monks running that 105/55 health UW solo build. But, as with droknars armoured players in Ascalon, it does now.

Monks now I've noticed are charging players upwards of 3k to tag along on a smite run. One player I noticed taking along 4 other players, basically netting that monk 15k. For what? 5 players is the size of a normal smite run. But now you'll have to pay 3k to do it? True, you don't have to do anything, but willing to pay that much for a chance that nothing good will even drop. 3k for some residue and remains. Combined with the diminishing results when you constantly farm the same place these monks are going to make a killing.

As a result, because of the price of ecto, there is no need for these monks to join other groups. They're better off to farm ecto, sell it for 10k (roughly), buy the shards they'll need with the profit, and get their fissure armor that way.

What are we left with? Upwards of a few hours (and I'm not kidding) to just get into a terrible PUG in the temple. Warriors, Necros, Mesmers, and Rangers constantly spamming to get into groups, who are basically useless to these 105/55 monks. At least elementalists can tag along because of how much their offensive capabilities can speed up the otherwise slow solo run.

Even when you do form a group, how do you know your monks are not these dreaded builds? Now your group is left in grief because the only thing this monk is good for is such a small fraction of the UW. Better yet when they decide to tag along for a trip down to the FoW. The group just to the right shatters their enchantments, and the monk leaves. Group falls apart, cursing and the like follow suit, and all that time spent to form a group wasted.

I'll admit, I have a friend who uses the solo build, but he covers the entrance fee most of the time. But those who are exploiting it are really ruining the gaming experience for some players. I certainly hope what the frog spoke of in changes in the combat system and what not are true, because a lot of the fun is getting sucked out of this game. That or hopefully the Furance or Footsteps will be the bane to these monks.

There, got that off my chest, feel free to flame.

Cymboric Treewalker · Aug 22, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Actually, I'll disagree with this. Protective Bond is broken. There's a serious problem with any enchantment where the *only* answer is removal. Peace,
-CxE

My guess is that you have not seen the very simple mesmer skill - Conjure Phantasm - imagine what a -5 degen does to a 105 hit point monk...

um... well DEATH.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 22, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

It was hard enough to get monks before... But really, if they nerfed this... How many monks would there be? One of the reasons people put up with being the guy who stares into 2-10 red bars for the entire match is because they know that they will excell at the endgame content eventually, and will never be in short demand (however, the demand is incompetant. all of it). It boils down to the mercinary healer thing. These guys are offering a stupid service, and stupid people are paying them for it. Let them.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Amen brother.

Here, I'll knock out all the flames for you in advance ok?

1) stfu noob
2.) it does what it says in the skill description so it cant be wrong
3.) it doesnt impact you or the economy
4.) I PLAY THE WAY I WANT WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!!!
5.) Anet wants us to do this, or they wouldve stopped us by now.
6.) stfu noob
7.) wealth is worthless in this game so why are you whining...

There I think that about covers the gamit of what fllames you can expect, how many posts do you think it will take to cover them alll?

Edit, the really funny part is those are about the sum total of the flames that were laid upon me on my thread about bandwagon monks. what? 260 posts later and 7 basic flames. I've had to repeat myself quite a bit.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 22, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

My guess is that you have not seen the very simple mesmer skill - Conjure Phantasm - imagine what a -5 degen does to a 105 hit point monk...

um... well DEATH.

ok, first youre talking about pvp, which I wasnt speaking about when I started this thread, Of course those who only play pvp only think about pvp so it was inevitiable that pvp would be considered on this thread i suppose.

Second, it wouldnt be as easy as a -5 degen. It would take more than a little -5 degen to do in a 105 monk, first, 3 points of that are going to be gone because of mending, and it could be more if someone took say, watchful spirt instead of ebond. and that doesnt even count healing breeze for 7 regen points... nope, the degen wont do it alone, you'd have to remove/energy starve those enchantments for your degen to even have a hope of killing the monk.

Sekkira · Aug 22, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Here's what I don't get though. ArenaNet coded this game from the ground up, development for 4 years. They implemented Protection bond and Protective Spirit to be 5% and 10% respectively. They also implemented major and superior runes which lowered your health which was a bonus for protection monks. In all seriousness, I really don't see it to be an exploit right there, two and two together and it is blantently obvious. How could something so in your face slip through into retail all together?

The percent rate of protection monk enchantments make sure that anyone regardless of hp receive the same percent of damage maximum. The lower the HP, the less numbered damage, but your HP will drop just as fast as the dude with 480HP, you just receive a better benifit of healing due to healing being involved in actual numbers.

Changing the energy cap on it can be compensated for. Changing the percentage would render the skill practically useless. Capping the maximum amount of damage it is allowed to protect against is nerfing protection monks and deterring the use of superior runes at all. Changing the superior runes to not stack HP penalties is blatently obvious to how much that can be exploited. Removing the skill altogether is nerfing the protection monk.

This skill how it is now hardly makes a dent in anything but the community who happens to use it often. You alter it in any of these ways (which are the only ways I can think of) would unbalance things further. Adding disenchantments to these areas would make even more skills useless in the UW.

Yes this is an exploit in it's pure definition:

tr.v. ex·ploit·ed, ex·ploit·ing, ex·ploits (k-sploit, ksploit)

1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.

It however is not in the other definition an exploit, taking advantage of a vunerability in software as it would be met as such with a quick fell swoop (points to all other REAL exploits in the game that have been responded to within hours). Is the skill unbalanced? Considering it is only truely effective in situations that aren't common throughout Tyria, I might go as far to say it is underpowered. However in the situations where it is effective, it really is truely effective.

All this flaming from both ends has got to stop, really. Seven pages and the whole shitfest could easily be described in a few short sentances. If it was an exploit, it would have been dealt with accordingly long ago. If it is unbalanced, it will be changed in the next update. I don't think it is imbalanced, but if ArenaNet sees it so, then so be it changed. If not, then you were wrong and I will laugh at you (not really, I'll just smile and continue what I'm doing until I have enough ecto for my FoW armour then respec it into a healer).